Tulpa.info - metaphysics

our soul just ends up in a random dream plane and hangs out there till we wake up

It's a neat idea'. I myself stick with the physical explanation for dreams but I like that idea.

I hope dreams are not astral projections

Flodos

I can see myself argue your positions when I take a physicalist stance to things, so I get where you're coming from. There's very little provable about tulpamancy, let alone the wild claims I put forward XD

I think tulpamancy can be pretty compatible with current knowledge accepted in psychology and psychiatry. It depends on what kind of claims you include in tulpamancy. "another consciousness" is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof but I believe most of tulpamancy experiences don't make difference of quality compared to experiences of little kids having imaginary friends.

Flodos

The conclusion to my story is that, over time, the other host wanted out. He couldn't keep up the forcing and wasn't happy as a host. While every previous visit, we could feel that the tup's, eh, core, or soul (?) was still firmly with their host. It was a safety net, since we'd experienced tups not being able to cross from mind to mind unharmed or without getting lost, and that lifeline allowed us to recover them. The last time though, the other tulpa took it with her, and moved in to my system. That's how my second tup, Colgate, joined my mind

That's an interesting story. I'm always curious about people sharing their experiences with system hopping. While I don't think it makes sense for the tulpa to be exactly the same tulpa mind to mind, I think people underestimate how powerful expectations and partner forcing can really be. My guess is you guys and the other system put in a lot of effort into this, essentially setting up some kind of shared expectation. It's like shared personality and tulpa forcing in a way- only the randomness is coming from 2 brains instead of one. As you share information together, you become more similar, and perhaps that's why you can more easily predict each other's behavior. As for Colgate- if they are content with your projection of them and they self-identify with it, then I think it's fair game to say that's the real Colgate. Colgate in this case just happens to be part tulpa part egregore. As for Colgate's soul hopping around- I don't think I can speak on that, but honestly why not? I'm wondering about the traveling part- I wonder if that's more or less a requirement for the system syncing to work, otherwise the systems may spin out of sync too quickly. However, I have only heard of 2 cases on system hopping explained in more detail to me. (edited)

egregore?

If I recall correctly, an egregore is a being that is created by a collective. It's a cheesy example, but have you ever heard of Slenderman? Slenderman was made real by the people who believed in it. However, you could say Pinkie Pie is also an egregore- all of Pinky Pie's lore is no longer in the hands of MLP, it's shared by fans, tulpamancers with Pinkie Pie tulpas, and Pinkie Pie soulbonds

Tldr, something that is more or less collectively made

so is an egregore then the collective information about a concept, or is an egregore presumed to take on an identity or consciousness of its own in some way?

Both?

It depends on who you ask to.

7:03 PM

Just know, occultist and metaphysical terminology is horribly inconsistent and vary from person-to-person.

~~I think Alexandra David-Néel's "monk tulpa" was an egregore~~

interesting :o

7:05 PM

I'd love to explain my experience with tulpa 'skipping' in more detail Ranger, though with the caveat that anything beyond what I've said so far is purely subjective; I've got nothing solid to back it up whatshowever, it's just what I witnessed and experienced

Go ahead'

7:06 PM

Feel yourself free.

Even with the separation of human brains being in separate skulls, I think people absorb the personalities of others around them more than they would like to admit. I feel like I have internalized a bunch of people, I'm lucky if I can put their voice to their thoughts in my head. Not that they're weird brain tulpas or anything, just that they're shadows of others

I'd love to explain my experience with tulpa 'skipping' in more detail Ranger, though with the caveat that anything beyond what I've said so far is purely subjective; I've got nothing solid to back it up whatshowever, it's just what I witnessed and experienced

I know next to nothing about magic or neuroscience, I'm not one to judge. Fire away!

We are the company we keep.

So.. we've not done this in years, but I'll get some markers out of the way first: I refer a lot to a 'mind', which to me is the subjective area of a person's consciousness. I liken it to a planet, with a somewhat clear boundary and a clear dimension outside it as well, like space. I liken a person's consciousness to an island on that planet, and a person's subconsciousness to the ocean surrounding that planet. I believe in some kind of 'soul' or similar concept, though I refer to them as a person's core. Tulpa's have one, but I have one too within my own mind. I don't know whether these persist beyond death like souls do, or if they and souls are the same concept. when I say 'tulpaskipping', I mean the process by which a tulpa can, allegedly, cross from one mind to the other temporarily. Their core stays in the original host's mind, and a thread remains between it and their consciousness in the other mind. This is not specific to one pair of hosts or one pair of hosts and one tulpa, I believe this can happen between any host or with any tulpa if conditions and process are right. (edited)

I am, you are, all of them already.

I experienced the process of a tulpaskip as follows: me and the destination host enter meditation in order to force, with me focussing on the tulpa that desires to visit, the destination host simply waiting. I confer with the tulpa and make sure she feels ready and confident about the journey, then go through a visualisation metaphor in order to 'open' my mind. The process is uncomfortable, like opening an airlock, but allows the tulpa to leave the confines of my mind. Like a tether, their core stays secure in my mind and a thread stretches from it to her consciousness, going beyond the border of my mind. While it's open, I can feel energies and entities beyond the border of my mind, most of which feel hostile, predatory, parasitic or in the best case simply extremely unfamiliar and foreign. Through a messaging app, I let the other host know the tulpa's departed. Within a minute or so, they should reply that they received her, though they often report that she's wearing a different outfit or clothing than she left with.

7:27 PM

We've tried giving tulpa's phrases or codes to report upon arrival, to mixed results. Sometimes they arrived unaware of such a plan, sometimes they did know, without prompting, that they had a code to deliver, but will insist on a wrong code. However, we have never had a tulpa insist they've had a code to share without the host having actually given them one.

7:29 PM

It has happened that a host did not receive the tulpa, or received another entity in its place they had to fight, in which case I've always been able to pull the tulpa back by the thread connecting them to their core back in my mind. In this situation they would return exhausted, often bearing wounds, as if they were attacked or were travelling for weeks, even if they only left my mind minutes before.

7:31 PM

Even when a tulpa arrived safely, the stay would be exhausting for them, and they'd often stay only a few hours. The longest a tup has stayed on a visit was between 36 and 48 hours, and by then they would start to lose their ability to retain their form and colour, have trouble focussing and in general look fading and ill.

7:34 PM

that's the process. Like I said, this is entirely subjective and unproven, just how I experienced it. Even so, I'm looking for opinions and others' experiences

My experience was far less troubled; no problems with entities or unsafeness or anything of the sort'. Well, both me and the other guy were occultists so we did knew how to prevent that sort of stuff so makes sense ig

I find it curious you must travel deeper into the mind to travel outwards. Some of the symptoms you are describing are intrusive thoughts, which become more likely when you travel deeper and become more immersed. While it may not be desirable proof wise, perhaps building a bridge by sharing the codes and information on your tulpa's journey will allow greater success. Maybe it will prevent intrusive noise and fear. (edited)

which symptoms are you referring to Sub?

7:39 PM

and I was extremely sceptical about this process while I was doing it (Anne begged and convinced me for weeks before I agreed to it), so the codes were a way for me to try and bring some semblance of objectivity to this weird shiz. I had the feeling that if I asked the other host 'did she have the colour green to give me?' he'd always say yes, and there'd be no way to know whether it'd be Anne's consciousness retaining the information, or his expectation parrotting it for her (edited)

7:40 PM

I've spent a lot of time meditating on myself and have battled intrusive thoughts most of my life, but they have never felt like entities the same way those I glimpsed 'outside my mind'

Flodos

It has happened that a host did not receive the tulpa, or received another entity in its place they had to fight, in which case I've always been able to pull the tulpa back by the thread connecting them to their core back in my mind. In this situation they would return exhausted, often bearing wounds, as if they were attacked or were travelling for weeks, even if they only left my mind minutes before.

entity they had to fight?

7:46 PM

7:48 PM

it's interesting to read a report with honest description of failures while practicing metaphysical approach. usually people talking about this stuff are full of cognitive biases

Err.. yes, though I'm not going to claim anything like what that screencap does on the nature of such entities XD

which symptoms are you referring to Sub?

You mentioned hostile energies and your tulpa being replaced with another entity- when my headmates have powerful emotional experiences, they are more susceptible to intrusive thoughts. The demons of your mind are not an insignificant force, especially in this state of mind. That's not to say you cannot manage them of course. As for the exhaustion- I don't find this surprising, Gray would get very tired after traveling with me. Just the excitement of the experience is a lot too.

I've spent a lot of time meditating on myself and have battled intrusive thoughts most of my life, but they have never felt like entities the same way those I glimpsed 'outside my mind'

When we "go deeper", things become unpredictable and strange. We poorly understand the experience but I wish to explore it once again. Perhaps your tulpa's travels are similar in some way. I wonder if traveling would be like teleporting- the more information that successfully reaches the other side, the more that's there to reconstruct. As for fear- I'm aware there's likely a scientific explanation and such, but that only makes me believe the unconscious mind is a powerful and fascinating thing, even better than fantasy

Flodos

that's the process. Like I said, this is entirely subjective and unproven, just how I experienced it. Even so, I'm looking for opinions and others' experiences

I'm neither a scientist or a veteran occultist, but that sounds very much like astral travel

I think 'astral travel' might be a fitting name. My experience lead me to conclude that minds exist in some kind of shared space; an aether, astral dimension, spiritual plane or whathaveyou, yeah

~~inb4 someone mentions chaos magick~~

man, it's wild talking about this again after 4 years of purely scientific education. My entire university life so far has been about trying to make measurable the immeasurable and turn psychology into a Science, and yet here I am, talking about mind dimensions and tulpas transferring XD

I'm nondualist, so to me the entirety of existence is just the mind of a incomprehensible being. Sharing thoughts is kinda required for my worldview

Sub. Rep. | Shadow System

which symptoms are you referring to Sub?

You mentioned hostile energies and your tulpa being replaced with another entity- when my headmates have powerful emotional experiences, they are more susceptible to intrusive thoughts. The demons of your mind are not an insignificant force, especially in this state of mind. That's not to say you cannot manage them of course. As for the exhaustion- I don't find this surprising, Gray would get very tired after traveling with me. Just the excitement of the experience is a lot too.

I've spent a lot of time meditating on myself and have battled intrusive thoughts most of my life, but they have never felt like entities the same way those I glimpsed 'outside my mind'

When we "go deeper", things become unpredictable and strange. We poorly understand the experience but I wish to explore it once again. Perhaps your tulpa's travels are similar in some way. I wonder if traveling would be like teleporting- the more information that successfully reaches the other side, the more that's there to reconstruct. As for fear- I'm aware there's likely a scientific explanation and such, but that only makes me believe the unconscious mind is a powerful and fascinating thing, even better than fantasy

I would love to know more about your travelling and 'going deeper'!

psychology is a study, it doesn't need to be science

7:53 PM

you can use scientific methods, but it's more about outcomes

7:53 PM

doesn't matter what model you use, as long as it works, it's successful

hm interesting viewpoint

Flodos

man, it's wild talking about this again after 4 years of purely scientific education. My entire university life so far has been about trying to make measurable the immeasurable and turn psychology into a Science, and yet here I am, talking about mind dimensions and tulpas transferring XD

Thats the fun part, I like approaching the paranormal with a scientific mind, it leads to some interesting things if your willing to bend the rules

I would love to know more about your travelling and 'going deeper'!

@Flodos - jump I don't know if I'm ready to go into huge details about that. I have only done it a handful of times, and usually the goal is more personal

7:55 PM

I can share a few stories though. There was one time I wasn't feeling great and I was wearing basically a spacesuit of intrusive proof material

7:55 PM

I don't think I got very far, but it was a good thing I had that on

Deleted User

doesn't matter what model you use, as long as it works, it's successful

the same approach to this i have about tulpamancy, and i would extend it to metaphysics too. if you set a goal for your tulpamancy practices, your "exploration of mind and the system" will go generally in the direction of your goal, and the experience you are building will follow your expectations. you come up with lore and a model, and if it takes you to your destination, it's successful. if your metaphysical practice is about having unusual experiences, your "exploring the mind and the spirit" will go generally in the direction of your goal, and the experience you are building will follow your expectations. you come up with lore and a model, and if it takes you to your destination, it's successful. i have had metaphysical experiences myself including astral projection and seeing stuff in real world. but if you are treating the lore and model your mind came up with to meet your expectations as real, it is very likely you are deluding yourself (edited)

Agreed 100% with Okidokime here.

so do you two mean there is no objective reality to find, that there is no way to find it, or that you think my specific model is wrong?

Gray | Shadow System

I can share a few stories though. There was one time I wasn't feeling great and I was wearing basically a spacesuit of intrusive proof material

Another story- One time we tried to imagine a servitor for our sleep schedule. After trying to visualize a dinky machine, it would break. After us trying to fix it, we got the idea it needed to be bigger and then it suddenly grew into it's own wonderland space. It's like a weird giant steam-punk machine with gizmos and who knows what. We explored the space and then I fell asleep... I had the weirdest dream and it was awesome. I was awake and so was Gray, and we managed to talk to each other a bit. When I woke up (I was switched-in), I realized I was only asleep for maybe an hour, which was weird because it was midnight. Our Subconscious Representative (Sub. Rep.) panicked, worried we messed something up. He police tapped the area and told us we were not allowed to explore it without his permission. We only explored the area briefly a couple of times after that, we haven't had any intense experiences like that since. (edited)

i think mind under hypnotic/meditative state is uniquely susceptible to automatically generated lore and can be convinced it more real than reality they are experiencing on daily basis. is there an objective reality to find? not sure, maybe there is, but i don't think using imagination and letting your mind go loose in finding the truth is the best way of trying to find it out. i've seen many people telling me what they think reality is, how they discovered it "within", and they all just contradict each other. and i saw people trying to find the "common things" between people's experiences, but that's basically cherry picking. of course there are some similarities, we live and grow up in same or at least similar culture (edited)

Deleted User

the same approach to this i have about tulpamancy, and i would extend it to metaphysics too. if you set a goal for your tulpamancy practices, your "exploration of mind and the system" will go generally in the direction of your goal, and the experience you are building will follow your expectations. you come up with lore and a model, and if it takes you to your destination, it's successful. if your metaphysical practice is about having unusual experiences, your "exploring the mind and the spirit" will go generally in the direction of your goal, and the experience you are building will follow your expectations. you come up with lore and a model, and if it takes you to your destination, it's successful. i have had metaphysical experiences myself including astral projection and seeing stuff in real world. but if you are treating the lore and model your mind came up with to meet your expectations as real, it is very likely you are deluding yourself (edited)

I think personal models work well in-head, but there are limits to what these models can offer. For instance, you can't force the world to go back in time just because you want to, only you can mentally get stuck in the past (which I don't recommend)

yes, i agree

A long kiss goodnight

Another story- One time we tried to imagine a servitor for our sleep schedule. After trying to visualize a dinky machine, it would break. After us trying to fix it, we got the idea it needed to be bigger and then it suddenly grew into it's own wonderland space. It's like a weird giant steam-punk machine with gizmos and who knows what. We explored the space and then I fell asleep... I had the weirdest dream and it was awesome. I was awake and so was Gray, and we managed to talk to each other a bit. When I woke up (I was switched-in), I realized I was only asleep for maybe an hour, which was weird because it was midnight. Our Subconscious Representative (Sub. Rep.) panicked, worried we messed something up. He police tapped the area and told us we were not allowed to explore it without his permission. We only explored the area briefly a couple of times after that, we haven't had any intense experiences like that since. (edited)

so even though your system was worried that area was hostile, you decided to keep it? That amazes me! Did it work for your sleep schedule, by the way?

Deleted User

i think mind under hypnotic/meditative state is uniquely susceptible to automatically generated lore and can be convinced it more real than reality they are experiencing on daily basis. is there an objective reality to find? not sure, maybe there is, but i don't think using imagination and letting your mind go loose in finding the truth is the best way of trying to find it out. i've seen many people telling me what they think reality is, how they discovered it "within", and they all just contradict each other. and i saw people trying to find the "common things" between people's experiences, but that's basically cherry picking. of course there are some similarities, we live and grow up in same or at least similar culture (edited)

I make an effort to be clear on the limits of how real I deem my own claims for this reason. I don't mean to preach or make claims about reality I can't actually prove, but I do believe there is an objective truth to find, and would love to play a part in finding it

I go with the Discordian model, there are an infinite amount of boxes that we can use to view reality, none are more true than the other, outside of the boxes are chaos, and it is incomprehensible

I believe that all potential realities occur simultaneously

Flodos

so even though your system was worried that area was hostile, you decided to keep it? That amazes me! Did it work for your sleep schedule, by the way?

The giant servitor is ultimately a symbol of the mind, and it's cool so we decided to keep it. I don't think it was hostile, if anything it was just weird brain shenanigans that lead to that. We realized the key to that problem was we worried about our sleep too much. By not worrying about it, our sleep got better

i don't mind people practicing metaphysical stuff, but i do find it ... not sure what, sad? that people get stuck in one idea and basically waste time exploring things that are very likely just their imagination running free, and trying to connect the dots, interpret things in a way that would make sense. When I see people practicing metaphysics, I wonder about two things. do they care if what they believe is true? and more importantly, do they care if what they tell others is true? (edited)

Yet we can only ever observe one at a time

if the first one is "no", well, it's a choice of a person. if the second one is "no", that's dangerous

Also, there are lots of theories on the superconscious/collective consciousness that would explain the ability for tuppers to go between hosts (edited)

i don't mind people practicing metaphysical stuff, but i do find it ... not sure what, sad? that people get stuck in one idea and basically waste time exploring things that are very likely just their imagination running free, and trying to connect the dots, interpret things in a way that would make sense. When I see people practicing metaphysics, I wonder about two things. do they care if what they believe is true? and more importantly, do they care if what they tell others is true?

@deleted_user_529cfe4c351a - jump I see letting out imagination run wild as a way to better understand ourselves rather than the world around us. I think it's both important and good fun.

Sub. Rep. | Shadow System

i don't mind people practicing metaphysical stuff, but i do find it ... not sure what, sad? that people get stuck in one idea and basically waste time exploring things that are very likely just their imagination running free, and trying to connect the dots, interpret things in a way that would make sense. When I see people practicing metaphysics, I wonder about two things. do they care if what they believe is true? and more importantly, do they care if what they tell others is true?

@deleted_user_529cfe4c351a - jump I see letting out imagination run wild as a way to better understand ourselves rather than the world around us. I think it's both important and good fun.

yeah i can see how it can help understanding ourselves, but that can also be quite illusive. if someone goes too deep, it can start being generative, rather than descriptive. that's core of tulpamancy

8:12 PM

finding about yourself is usually much much simpler than what you see in tulpamancy practice

Everything in the mind is generative. What leads to actual changes in the mind is debatable, but ultimately you create what you want to see.

true

Something I want to add with this whole talk about collective reality and nature of reality n such. Y'all remember chaos magick? That belief has power? Well - if the world is in one of these models that y'all are proposing then this would fit in even better - after all, if the universe is all the minds working together then what the majority of the minds believe in would be the world, after all.

i absolutely believe belief has power - over the mind

I think actually everything is capable of changing your brain, but perhaps not in a way some may expect. For instance, maybe you can't (and definitely shouldn't) try to control your heart rhythm, but you could have done something to achieve something, even if it's moving some muscles in strange ways. Even entertaining the idea itself is a reflection of who you are and how your mind is wired.

You can absolutely control your heart rhythm, but it probably isn't wise to mess with

Sub. Rep. | Shadow System

I think actually everything is capable of changing your brain, but perhaps not in a way some may expect. For instance, maybe you can't (and definitely shouldn't) try to control your heart rhythm, but you could have done something to achieve something, even if it's moving some muscles in strange ways. Even entertaining the idea itself is a reflection of who you are and how your mind is wired.

Athletes and professional shooters control their heart rate all the time

8:18 PM

Maybe not with "magick" but with meditation for sure

Monks are very well known for manipulating the heart rhythm

want to change your heart rhythm at will? just run!

Thats definitely one way

I was thinking more you can manually change your heart rate to whatever you want, not taking advantage of tools like deep breathing and regular exercise

Deleted User

want to change your heart rhythm at will? just run!

All I gotta do is stand up

I am out of shape .-.

Sub. Rep. | Shadow System

I was thinking more you can manually change your heart rate to whatever you want, not taking advantage of tools like deep breathing and regular exercise

considering people get their heartrate go up during panic attack which is purely mental experience, i think people could train getting into a mind state that increases their heartrate

8:19 PM

even just getting excited can do it

New apartment I'm going to in few months has a nice gym, so I plan to start seriously working out then

personally i do like to entertain the idea that mind is a form of universe experiencing itself. it's a thing that makes the most sense to me and is something i experienced very vividly during my personal meditation practice

8:21 PM

individual mind being sort of a wave on an ocean, ocean being the universe

Have you ever heard of the Akashic Records?

8:22 PM

It's a metaphysical concept of a repository of all sensory experiences of all minds that ever existed or will exist in every universe

8:22 PM

More or less

8:23 PM

This conversation, all the thoughts and feelings associated with it, are there. And according to some, it is possible to "view" the records and experience literally anything

Perhaps heart rate wasn't the best example. Instead, how about most people can't have alcohol in their body without drinking alcohol or eating something somehow to create alcohol. While I'm sure you can condition yourself to believe you can become "drunk" whenever you want, it's not due to an increase of alcohol in your blood.

Sub. Rep. | Shadow System

Perhaps heart rate wasn't the best example. Instead, how about most people can't have alcohol in their body without drinking alcohol or eating something somehow to create alcohol. While I'm sure you can condition yourself to believe you can become "drunk" whenever you want, it's not due to an increase of alcohol in your blood.

That would save me a lot of money if it were true

8:25 PM

It would collapse several economies if it became common practice, though xD

Alcohol imposition doesn't seem unreasonable, just perhaps not always desirable or healthy.

I mean, yeah, not like I would do it constantly

Sub. Rep. | Shadow System

Perhaps heart rate wasn't the best example. Instead, how about most people can't have alcohol in their body without drinking alcohol or eating something somehow to create alcohol. While I'm sure you can condition yourself to believe you can become "drunk" whenever you want, it's not due to an increase of alcohol in your blood.

drunken fist

(edited)

Sub. Rep. | Shadow System

I was thinking more you can manually change your heart rate to whatever you want, not taking advantage of tools like deep breathing and regular exercise

Monks can lower their heart beats to death like levels, that is something no amount of deep breathing can do without the minds influence